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http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Webmasters/thread?tid=724c7ca07ff32ee1&hl=en
This is really a follow-on from my last post – Carlos and I are asking the same questions, and I believe with the same intention.
Here is an excert, but you should really read the whole thread to see how it progresses. I copy some part of it – without intention of deceiving the search engines
Carlos124Level 1
1/17/10I appreciate the further response Autocrat but this can get downright confusing.You say…
“At theend of the day – you are loking for legitimate (or to legitimise) methods of generating backlinks so that you can improve your sites performance in the SERPs.”
Absolutely correct.
“As with various forms of SEO/SEM, that is likely to result in “Active Manipulation” – which is against the WebMaster Guidelines.”
I would not say that this is likely to result, rather that it does result in Active Manipulation for the purpose of improving one’s ranking in the SERP’s.
So if Active Manipulation is not allowed by Google’s Webmaster Guidelines…guidelines which by incorporation into another Google service I agreed to, I am bound to abide by the how do you define Active Manipulation?
Is ANY so-called Active Manipulation of search engine ranking “evil”? Or a violation of Google TOS or guidelines? I don’t rightly know of ANY single web master anywhere that is in their right mind who does not actively attempt to manipulate their ranking to make it better. That is why I am asking you define what you mean by Active Manipulation because I cannot believe that you are in one fell swoop saying that any webmaster who tries to manipulate their ranking is “wrong” for doing so just because Google does not like it.
Maybe your definition of Active Manipulation and mine are different. Don’t know.
I am not asking so as to try and justify what I would like to do. I am asking so as to be clear on what I can and cannot do so that I can either put Google anything behind me and forget any attempts to be a webmaster AND placate Google at the same time or continue to try and succeed by focusing on improving my ranking in Google with a clean conscience respecting their TOS.
It amazes me how Google can possibly expect anyone to not try and Actively Manipulate or influence their ranking. It’s like saying that in the real world I cannot actively manipulate or influence the public through advertising to know about and otherwise use my real world services.
Do you see a difference between “evil” active manipulation and active influence?
I am of a mind to just forget Google and focus on internet marketing attempts that do not tie me down to a TOS which is as you say general in nature in most cases and still too nebulous when it comes to specifics of what I can and cannot do to provide me with any reasonable degree of clarity.
I will do what I must do to effectively compete in the SERP’s or I will forget Google and do things outside the scope of it’s TOS. The thing I will not do is keep trying to do what must be done in this day and age to compete while at the same time putting myself in the straight jacket of a TOS which is lacking in clear specifics (if I cannot at least arrive at a reasonable understanding of what I can and cannot do under it).
I just want clarity one way or another. That is all I want. Is that too much to ask?
Is it okay for me to use ezine?
To develop backlinks through articles for my site pages and to look to such backlinks to improve my site ranking?All considerations aside as to whether that works or not I believe based on the discussion here that such is perfectly acceptable by ANY Google TOS or guidelines.
Is it acceptable for a web site owner who owns several domains to point to anyone of them from any other of his domains?
I think again the answer to that is yes with a qualification that it not be excessive. And here is where we get into the nebulous BS that Google seems to be so good at these days.
It’s completely up to Google to determine what excessive is. I am okay with that. I could care less about the risks involved. Life is full or risks. So what! I know without a shadow of a doubt in my mind at how badly Google is able to detect many interlinking attempts with respect to figuring out why site A links to site B. Google’s algorithm is NOT all knowing. It never has been nor will it ever be.
Never mind that some large sites, who apparently have Google’s blessing, interlink to each other in quantity of linking that I will never in my entire life even come close to approaching. But if Google says that my having 2 or 24 web sites all linking to one other site is too much…well…nothing I can do to say otherwise is there? Excessive is whatever Google says it is.
Like I said I am okay with that. But if that is the case, and I believe it is, where does that leave someone like me who wants to operate with a clean conscience about abiding by Google’s TOS? It leaves me not knowing if I am doing something I should be doing or not with respect to excessive interlinking.
I am not talking about interlinking between junk sites Autocrat. Not at all. Whatever you or others here may think about spam and junk that is not something to even be considered in this coversation for I am not talking about interlinking between junk pages. I am talking about useful, valuable content on different sites and using those sites to improve the overall ranking of other relevant and useful sites through judicious linking.
In the case of our discussion here I am even more specifically talking about hosting my articles independent from article directories so that I can gain the benefit of more flexibility with how I write my articles and otherwise put more emphasis on making them better quality since they will be hosted on my site as opposed to continuing to give ezine the benefit of my free labor with little in return.
Is it wrong for me to host my article independently on my own site and use said article to gain backlinks for myself just as I presently do through ezine?
If that is “wrong” why is it “wrong”? Just because it exposes the failure of Google’s algorithm to adequately distinguish good content from poor content based on the quality of the content alone and not based on a link algorithm that has proven to be less than robust against spam?
If that is not “wrong” then I take it that it’s okay for me to link between my sites to improve their ranking link juice.
Again we get back to the nebulous excessive bit.
I mean Google cannot have it both ways saying out of one side of it’s mouth that it’s okay for me to write articles for self promotion and post them to article directories like ezine and then that it’s not okay for me to do the same thing out of my own domain to another domain. These are both means for me to influence my own site rankings that are equally as much under my control respecting the type of backlink and the anchor text I use. Either they are both “wrong” or neither are. Which is it?
If ANY self promotion and backlinking for purposes of increasing web site ranking is “wrong” then ezine article type posting is dead “wrong” which brings us right back to the original question I posed when I started this thread. Which in turns leaves me right where I started…confused.
Carlos
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Carlos124Level 1
1/18/10One other thing I would like to add to this discussion that just now came to my mind. I want to add this not to stir up further discussion, though I am certainly open to hearing anything else anyone might have to say, but rather to make this discussion a bit more complete since I will be pointing to it as an example of the problems with Google’s TOS in the future and the problems that someone trying to abide by TOS rules may encounter.
It has been said in this thread that certain things are technically against Google’s rules but that Google looks the other way unless violations get excessive. And it has also become evident that this excessiveness is completely arbitrary with respect to when a practice is deemed to be excessive. For some sites it will be excessive to interlink between 3 or 4 sites. For others, the really big sites with lots of satellite sites, it will probably not be considered excessive if they lots and lots of interlinked web sites.
The problem for me or anyone trying to abide by TOS rules is this.
Are we supposed to put upon ourselves a more stringent requirement of abiding by Google rules than Google itself enforces? If Google choses to look the other way are we, who desire to abide by TOS rules, to disadvantage ourselves by living by the letter of the Google rules?
Our competitors will know no such disadvantage. They will walk in technical violations of Google TOS rules that Google choses to ignore.
That’s unfair.
Google should not expect anyone to abide by it’s rules to a higher degree than it itself is willing to enforce. And no one, who wants to abide by Google rules, should feel bound morally, legally, or otherwise to not engage in technical violations that Google itself does not enforce.
The other day I went on a public bus. The bus line has a rule. No eating or drinking on the bus. Yet they do not enforce said rule. I even asked the bus driver if I could have a banana despite the rule and he said that it was okay for me to have my banana.
Was I supposed to not eat my banana just because the rule was the rule? If it was not enforced by the bus company through it’s authorized representative? That would put me in the position of being the rule maker to enforce upon myself a rule that it is not my place to make or interpret.
Rather is it not the better part of wisdom and common sense for me to just…well…eat my banana and not worry about it?
Same with this Google rule business that they apparently do not enforce. I want to do the right thing by Google yet the letter of it’s rules make it near impossible for me to compete with other webmasters who do things that Google overlooks and does not enforce. Am I supposed to not eat my search engine banana because the rule maker, Google, allows other webmasters to eat their bananas while looking the other way at the technical violations of it’s own rules?
That’s ludicrous.
Google can enforce whatever rules it wants to make at will. They can clarify their rules and make them explicit but they don’t. I am not an engineer but I could tonight give Google engineers insights on how to kick out all kinds of thin almost worthless sites from it’s index. But will Google do that? No they won’t. The Google index is filled with sites that are in technical violation. I see them almost every day. Especially thin, junky Adsense sites. They are all over in the niches that I and other internet marketers are targeting. Scraped sites. Copyright violations left and right.
I could give Google engineers a search query that would pull up thousands of such sites. Looking them up based on the same cheap About Me page that is used by thousands. But would Google kick them out of it’s index? I doubt it. They know full well how to do what I am proposing but they don’t. They chose to look the other way. I am not sure why.
I think webmasters such as myself should be free to be in technical violation of whatever rules Google itself does not enforce. That’s only fair and that is the only way that honest and conscientious webmasters can compete. It levels the playing field between those who don’t give a darn about Google rules, or any rules other than making money for themselves, and those who care to do the right thing.
Of course the best thing of all would be if Google got serious about enforcing the rules across the board. Equally. But they don’t do that.
Just my added thoughts to add to this discussion and round it out.
Carlos
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